Talk:Monster Box Build Guide
Stickmen Build and Monster Build Personally I think that monster builds are actually related to stickmen builds: different monster builds are best dealt with certain stickmen builds. Should we group them as builds with a monster build and its respective stickmen build? Such as: #25 in Range AT, 75 in Range, 28 gold drop, 98% revival, 250 per spawning. Ivan247Talk Page 14:03, December 1, 2013 (UTC) Yeah, I think we should. I think it's kinda silly to treat monster builds and stickman builds as separate. RadiantDarkBlaze (talk) 07:53, February 1, 2014 (UTC) Revival chance Just wanted to make a build, but got stuck when facing the Revival chance thing. Either delta or bound or revive, it is determined by chance. So how do you all calculate the max money for that revival thing? By now I have used a trick by just multiplying 1+({multiplier}{whatevertheincrementis}y%}). Am I doing it right? Preceding useless rant spammed by Logo.| Rage at me 13:23, February 21, 2014 (UTC) Example done with Red Skull Bat (Since it is the easiest to calculate) http://prntscr.com/2uhx28 And that is what I got for Max Gold, but not sure if it is even accurate. Preceding useless rant spammed by Logo.| Rage at me 15:14, February 21, 2014 (UTC) For the Red Skull Bat GPW = gold drop * monsters spawned * (1 + delta feather) = (2+2x) * (20+10y) * (1+.05z) = (1+x) * (2+y) * (20+z), where x+y+z=99 This will be maximized when 1+x = 2+y = 20+z = k. Then GPW=k^3 x+y+z=(k-1)+(k-2)+(k-20)=99. k=40.66 GPW=40*41*41=67240 Eashy (talk) 00:42, February 22, 2014 (UTC)Eashy :Okay, then what about those gel heads? They respawn after death, but not only once. Preceding useless rant spammed by Logo.| Rage at me 01:20, February 23, 2014 (UTC) For the Green Gel head GPW = gold drop * monsters spawned * (1 + revival + revival^2 + revival^3 + ...) = gold drop * monsters spawned * 1/(1-revival) <-this is the formula for an infinite geometric series = (1+x) * (20+10y) * 1/(1-.02z) = 500 * (1+x) * (2+y) / (50-z), where x+y+z=99 This will be maximized when 1+x = 2+y = k and z=49. Then GPW = 500*k^2 x+y+z=(k-1)+(k-2)+49=99. k=26.50 GPW=500*26*27=351,000 Eashy (talk) 00:08, February 25, 2014 (UTC)Eashy :Ah, thanks. Then for White Smiley Tree, formula is: (8+8x)*(8+4y)*(1+(2+0.2z))/2, where x+y+z=99 Which is maximized when 8+8x = 8+4y = (1+(2+0.2z))/2 = k, then GPW=k^3 x+y+z=(k-1)+(k-2)+(k-15)=99. k=38.66 GPW=38*39*39=57,798...But wait, Neither x, y nor z can reach 38 or 39... Any solution to this?Preceding rant by Logo.| Rage at me 08:24, May 25, 2014 (UTC) Before maximizing, you need to make sure that the coefficients of x,y,z are all 1. For the white smiley tree, (8+8x)*(8+4y)*(1+(2+0.2z))/2 = 3.2*(1+x)*(2+y)*(15+z) where x+y+z=99 Which is maximized when 1+x = 2+y = 15+z = k, then GPW=3.2*k^3 x+y+z=(k-1)+(k-2)+(k-15)=99. k=38.66 GPW=3.2*38*39*39=184,953.6 Which will occur when there are 37 (x=38-1) points in gold, 37 (y=39-2) points in pop-up, and 24 (z=39-15) points in tower so that GPW=3.2*(1+x)*(2+y)*(15+z)=3.2*38*39*39=184,953.6 Eashy (talk) 22:06, May 30, 2014 (UTC)Eashy Could someone put the math for maximizing GPW for each monster in an easier-to-understand format please? I'm hoping to see some updates to this guide soon, and these formulas seem to be the key. I just can't understand them for the life of me xD ;; RadiantDarkBlaze (talk) 13:54, December 12, 2015 (UTC) :Each stat for each monster, the Red Skull Bat for example, (gold drop, monsters spawned, and delta feather delta feather is a chance that increases by decimals starting from 0, delta feather must be added by 1, which basically means that 0 delta feather means that the original equation isn't affected, since delta feather is merely an add-on to the equation) is multiplied by each other. Each stat must also be represented by the initial amount with no investment (Red Skull Bat's initial population is 20) plus the number of investments into that stat (let's say y is the amount of investments in Pop-Up) times the amount the stat grows each investment (Red Skull Bat's population grows by 10 each investment) (the resulting formula would be 20+10y) Based on the growth of each stat: :*Gold drop: 2+2x :*Population: 20+10y :*Delta Feather: 1+0.05z, :where x is the number of investments in Toughness (to raise the gold drop), :y is the number of investments in Pop-Up, :z is the number of investments in Delta Feather, :and x+y+z=99 (because the level cap is 100, and each monster starts out at LV 1, so 99 investments would be needed to get to the level cap the level cap was impossible back when that discussion took place) :Simplified, the whole equation is (1+x)(2+y)(20+z)=GPW. :Then it was maximized, which means that each stat must equal each other (because equal numbers multiplied together result in the largest number; think of the sides of any rectangle compared to a square with sides that, when added, equal the sides of the rectangle added together), so 1+x = 2+y = 20+z. Let's represent any of these as k. So, going back to the simplified equation, we'll have k*k*k=GPW, or k^3=GPW. :To find what the stats would be when optimized, we set k equal to each stat calculation, so: :*k=1+x, or k-1=x, :*k=2+y, or k-2=y, :*k=20+z, or k-20=z. :Now, plug these into the equation for adding investments up to 99 in place of their respective calculations: :(k-1)+(k-2)+(k-20)=99. :k turns out to be 40.66. :Since you cannot invest a mixed number into a stat, this could be thought of as 40, 41, and 41 into any stat, instead of 40.66 into each. :Finally, plug this into the simplified equation: :40*41*41=67240. This is the maximum amount of gold you can get out of the Red Skull Bat. :Now, the Green Gel Head is a little different. The gold drop and population are calculated the same way, but the revival stat is represented as 1+z+z^2+z^3..., which is represented as 1/(1-z), where z is the number of investments in revival. :The resulting formula is \frac{500(1+x)(2+y)}{(50-z)} . 50-z, like the formula for an infinite geometric series (1/1-z), means that z=49. :So, (k-1)+(k-2)+49=99, and k=26.5. :Finally, GPW=500*26*27=351,000. :The White Smiley Tree has an equation that requires you to first make the coefficients for each stat 1 (coefficient is the number that is multiplied by the stat, in case you didn't know; for example, 2x, and the coefficient is 2). 3.2 is taken out prior to solving. So the only difference, really, is that k^3 for GPW must be multiplied by 3.2. :You'll eventually end up with 3.2*38*39*39=184,953.6. :Hope this helps. Honestly, it would have been nice to know that Eashy did all of this before I made my page... Where the party's at [[User:$igma|'Σ']] 20:11, December 12, 2015 (UTC) :Okay. So basically there's three values, each of which start at a different place. The first goal is to get them each to the same place as each other. After that, the goal is to keep them balanced to continue to get the maximum possible GPW for each level of the monster. Because what with the addition of bosses, isn't the max level actually 600 now? Meaning that there's 599 points to go around instead of just 99? The current builds listed for the monsters are a little outdated due to that, which is basically the main reason I became interested in this; I want to speedrun Monster Box again soon. I'm not as interested in what the max GPW is as I am in the easiest way that I can attain the max GPW. :For the White Smiley Tree, if there's 599 points to invest into leveling up the monster would "206*205*205" be correct? What investment pattern does that actually equate to? (Yeah, I'm the sort to boil things down beyond simple and then get what I want to do done) xD RadiantDarkBlaze (talk) 21:06, December 12, 2015 (UTC) ::Yes, the level cap is 600 now, so to adjust, the equation would be x+y+z=599, instead of 99. I would say to go to my page for help with the player stats, but there are currently several things wrong with it... It is still helpful with certain things, though. ::#Find the equation for GPW. ::#Simplify the equation to make all coefficients for the stats 1. ::#Set each stat calculation equal to each other and k. ::#Set the common factor times k^3 equal to the GPW. ::#Set k equal to each stat calculation, and solve for each stat in terms of k. ::#Set x+y+z equal to 599, then plug in each stat calculation for each respective stat. ::#Solve for k. The resulting number should be the maximum GPW. ::#If the number is a fraction, add 1 to one of the stats if the fraction is 1/3, and add 1 to two of the stats if the fraction is 2/3. ::And it would actually be 206*206*205. Where the party's at [[User:$igma|'Σ']] 22:15, December 12, 2015 (UTC) Is this right? I tried doing some maths, and apparently for the max gold thing for Green Gel Head, you get 351000 profit per wave from 26,24,49 and 25,25,49. Is this right, and which would be better? Also, for max monster level GGH I got 275,275,49 and 276,274,49 both giving 38226000 per wave. Again, which is better? Xanderkip (talk) 21:05, December 15, 2015 (UTC) :Both are right for both calculations. Think of it this way: :(1+x)(2+y), where x=25,26 and y=25,24. :1+25=26 and 2+25=27. :1+26=27 and 2+24=26. :In both instances, you end up with 26×27, which is why both lead to the same answer. The same goes for 275,275 and 276,274. :This is because k (26.5) is halfway between 26 and 27. If it were possible for x to equal 25.5 and y to equal 24.5, the maximum GPW would be 351,125 (max level: 38,226,125). But since that isn't possible, we have to make them both whole numbers by either taking 0.5 from x and giving it to y, or vice versa. :Long story short, both investments result in the same outcome, so it doesn't matter which you go for. ______TΣ 21:56, December 15, 2015 (UTC) Questions Alright. First of all, I've only roughly read both this and Sigma's guide and I don't know jack shit about how you have all made these beautiful calculations. HOWEVER. I had a pair of questions that I'm going to ask. #I still have a good ol' graphical calculator lying around somewhere and there is software available for it. If you can chuck me a few formulas with 2 variables, I could make them into graphs. I'll admit, it's not a version with a colour screen so it will be pixelated, but I can work out resolution issues as I proceed (for example by taking several sections of a graph and putting them together to make an image with higher resolution). Probably there are online things for this too, but I've noticed there's a lack of any visual material that could help make things more understandable. #I'm trying to run an all-Sniper game, and I'm trying to figure out a good balance especially between base AT and arrow count. While base AT is nice and all, I've already raked in enough medals that all damage is doubled either way, so I'm more interested in crowd control than raw damage. Probably pierce chance and pierce AT also play a role in this, but I don't know very well how to utilise them best. I would be a much happier camper after knowing these things. Fire InThe HoleTalk 14:26, March 10, 2017 (UTC) All-Sniper build? I have just done a fairly successful all-Sniper run (which ended because I did not anticipate a high-level bat boss and all the Delta feather spawns from it), using 8 snipers with the following stats: *'28' in AT *'25' in Arrows *'0' in Range *'25' in Pierce chance *'22' in Pierce AT This is just the level 100 setup; presumably one could build it to utilise some more Pierce AT and a higher arrow count, primarily because that helps with eliminating mobs more quickly. I'm no expert on that, however, so a little advice might be helpful. And yes, this is heavily based off of $igma's optimal Sniper build, but ever so slightly more focused towards mob handling (I see no point in investing the 1 more point in AT if it can be spent for more anti-mob use in Pierce AT). Tell me what you think; I've only picked Monster Box up this week. Fire InThe HoleTalk 14:46, March 15, 2017 (UTC) :Ohhh, you went off of my guide? I really need to put some notice there to warn people about the countless errors that I'm too lazy to fix. I'll use a different approach, one that should be accurate in case the one listed on my guide is not. :Attack: 5a+10=5(a+2) :Critical Chance (maximum number of pierces): c/2 :Critical Damage: Attack(1+d/10) :First pierce is the normal attack with no enhancements; second pierce is normal attack times one critical enhancement; third pierce is second pierce's attack (normal*critical) times another critical enhancement (normal*critical^2);... :So the equation looks like 5(a+2) + 5(a+2)(1+d/10) + 5(a+2)(1+d/10)(1+d/10) + ... = 5(a+2)\sum_{k=0}^c(1+\frac{d}{10})^k . This is assuming the arrow will pierce the maximum amount of times (by the way, it will pretty much pierce about 7-8 times from one side of the screen to the other, assuming there is a monster at each point, which equates to c=14-16; let's let c=15), and if c is an odd number, half of the time the number of piercings will be \lfloor\frac{c}{2}\rfloor and the rest it will be \lceil\frac{c}{2}\rceil . :Now we have to find values of a and d (c is assumed to be 15) that would maximize the outcome of the said formula with the constraint of a+d+(Investments in Arrows)=85. I’m not aware of a way to find the maximum, but there are calculators out there that can. :My logic on "equal points in independent areas" is flawed. In reality, most of the time 25 arrows is too much because a lot of the arrows will just hit the ground before they hit any monsters. So, I’ll say maybe 15-20 is better (for a specific number, let’s go with 17). :I apologize that you went through an entire game thinking a slightly inefficient setup was the best, but I think that is a better approach to the optimal setup. ______TΣ 19:47, March 15, 2017 (UTC) ::Ah, I see. Go figure, I was patient and resourceful enough to get it to a pretty high level regardless. Next time I pick that up, I'll try this. The math became beyond my level once you introduced the more complex things, but I can grab the general idea. Too bad it isn't one of those 2-variable equations; I would've grabbed the ol' graphic calculator for you. ::Thanks for the reply, though. Fire InThe HoleTalk 20:59, March 15, 2017 (UTC)